Posts by Cold Steel

32

Cult...Cult...Cult...Cult!

by Cold Steel in

it seems that many people on this board get a certain amount of glee calling the jehovah's witness faith a "cult.

" especially former jehovah's witnesses.

and though it's true in a number of senses, we must be conscious of the fact that the early christians were considered by nearly everyone in roman and jewish society as a cult.

Cold Steel

Thanks for all the responses. Hassan's book has been on my reading list for some time. Looks like I'll have to move it to the top!

The Romans viewed the early Christians as a cult, and Celsus did much to encourage it. Hassan's formula could be seen as:

Behavior Control: Christians certainly apply here. However positive, behavior control is evident throughout the NT.
Thought Control: Same here. In fact, to "think" about adultary was tantamount to committing it, even though that's not what Christ said.
Emotional Control: Nothing specific here.
Information Control: Closed canon of the later church tied everyone into 66 books of scripture, even though the early church had an open canon.

The JWs come across in a more sinister form. When my aunt's family joined the JWs, they cut off all contact with me; and though I sought to befriend a number of JWs years ago, once they found I wasn't interested in conversion, that was it. It seems that Hassan is missing an element which I'll call Social Control. If social intercourse is forbidden (and I use that in its purest form), then the control becomes even more significant. Some have called the Mormons and Seventh Day Adventists "cults," though they don't meet Hassan's requirements. In fact, the Mormons have reached out to the Catholic faith and the Muslim faith, not to mention the Jews. And the Adventists, though they've sought to distance themselves from Ellen White's wriitings, teachings and pronouncements, have spun off a number of other religions, including the JWs and the Worldwide Church of God (formerly Radio Church of God). Since both religions have added to the Christian dogma, as the Christians added to the Jewish dogma, they have been branded as cults.

My wife thinks all religions are cults, except hers. (She's Greek Orthodox.)

32

Cult...Cult...Cult...Cult!

by Cold Steel in

it seems that many people on this board get a certain amount of glee calling the jehovah's witness faith a "cult.

" especially former jehovah's witnesses.

and though it's true in a number of senses, we must be conscious of the fact that the early christians were considered by nearly everyone in roman and jewish society as a cult.

Cold Steel

It seems that many people on this board get a certain amount of glee calling the Jehovah's Witness faith a "cult." Especially former Jehovah's Witnesses. And though it's true in a number of senses, we must be conscious of the fact that the early Christians were considered by nearly everyone in Roman and Jewish society as a cult. It's true that modern cults do strange things like cut off members from their families and friends and force them into a society in which they can be easily controlled, even to eating innutritious foods, but do the Jehovah's Witnesses really meet this criteria? If so, how? Do elders urge members to break off familial relations with non-member families?

If JWs are a cult, I'd like to hear how they qualify as such.

24

Weak JW Commits Suicide, Elders Reluctantly Have a Memorial at the Kingdom Hall

by OnTheWayOut in

so my mother calls me on thanksgiving thursday and tells me about a fellow in her kh that i knew quite well.

he grew a beard years ago and stopped field recruiting, but kept going to the kh several times a month as his wife was still active.

the elders never really tried to show concern for his depression, but always bugged him about the beard.

Cold Steel

Churches should never attempt to judge a person. That's something for the Lord to do. We recognize the weaknesses in all of us and we are there for love and support. Funeral services should be for the living, not the dead. I guess it comes with the territory when one believes one to be a receiver of light and knowledge -- and many church leaders are blind guides who attempt to lead the blind. There are many good ones out there, however, and they are the ones who, like Christ, do not judge in the here and now. Judgment comes later. You don't forbid the weak, but walk in the way of the Master.

15

JW's don't love Jehovah

by Mad Dawg in

our actions, wants, and desires are determined by what we hold most precious.

we will sacrifice one thing for another depending how they rank on our personal totem pole.

i have a cousin that became a jw - which brought me to this board.

Cold Steel

There are no apologists on this board. Most true JWs, unfortunately, only stick their heads up to post, then dive and run silent before the destroyers can reach them.

The God of the Old Testament is Jehovah, who was born into mortality as Jesus. Jehovah is the Son, not the Father. Their confusion on that issue alone is a minefield that sinks many of them. Still, if they understood the scriptures, they would recognize that. They also believe the Earth will exist as it did in its Edenic state instead of being resurrected as a fiery sphere of replendent glory. Even as the saints were baptized by water and fire (the Holy Spirit), the Earth will die and be resurrected, having been baptized by a flood and cleansed by fire. Ask a JW sometime what joy will come after six months of Edenic pleasures. How fun can petting tigers be after a few weeks?

After 787 family reunions, one each week, I suspect mahem would break out as people attacked each other with guitars and pitchforks! And after all the children grew up, what happiness would exist after that. "Hey, Melrose, a bunch of us are going over and pet the tigers next Tuesday. Want to join us?" The giant cats would eat grain during the day, but some of the more astute Witnesses would start noticing goats and sheeps missing in the mornings. Then they'd notice the cats would be less interested in the wheat the next day. Then some of them would begin disappearing.

But then, you won't read about that in any of the pamphlets!

310

Are they really that bad???

by anonymous4 in

had a good look into the doctrine, beliefs and practices of jws and to be honest, i don't really see anything wrong with it at all.. it's biblical and i've had such an eye opener the past year or so reading some of their books and magazines .

is there really any real reasons why i shouldn't want to get involved further?

:-).

Cold Steel

I don't think it's a case of it being "bad" as much as it is "incorrect."

Saying it's biblical is a judgment call, and one I vigorously disagree with. The greatest problem that I see is that it's a manmade religion. "For surely the Lord Ged will do nothing save he reveal his secrets to his servants the prophets." (Amos 3:7) There's nothing in the scriptures that point to the establishment of the Watchtower Bible and Tract Society, nor do we know where the leaders of the church get their authority. How did God come to establish their leaders and how is the JW any different than any other church or sect?

These are the questions that need to be anwered.

69

KS Blood-Handout s-55-e (PDF)!!!

by yknot in

we interrupt your forum posting for this 'just in' item...... it appears an elder has not locked his doctor's bag and a member of the conscious class has brazeningly swiped & scanned a copy of the s-55e.

(((thank you anonymous cc jw!.

for the purpose of our bethel audience i want to assure you no actual elder was willingly involved in the obtaining of this scan.. link: http://www.sendspace.com/file/mnf7a0.

Cold Steel

Recently I have had communication with a mole from Bethel who has been there many years, and is privy to certain information from the Legal Dept. regarding several matters, not the least of which is the blood transfusion issue among Jehovah’s Witnesses. Obviously the identity of this person must be kept a secret, especially since they have no intention of leaving at this point.

From what you're saying, this "mole" is soaking the organization by collecting a paycheck (and pension) and is pretending to believe in something he doesn't. If so, he's rationalizing his beliefs, kind of like someone who is against second amendment rights and being in the NRA, collecting a salary and secretly sending their enemies information. In short, even though I don't believe in the JW religion, what does he hope to accomplish? If the JWs are wrong on such an issue, they can't possibly be the true church of Jesus Christ. First they have the wrong dates, now the wrong doctrines. The JWs teach that the human soul sleeps at death, but Peter talks about the gospel being preached to those who are dead. How would that be possible? Well it's the "spiritually dead," we're told. But Peter says that the preaching was done so that they could be "judged" according to those in the "flesh," but "live" according to God in the "spirit." That's two major doctrines now and the church simply can't survive that, and the dates, and remain credible. As for the mole, I have conflicting feelings about him smuggling stuff out of the church HQ. Everyone's leaking things these days!

The concept was that the “new light” now came directly from Jehovah by means of his “holy spirit” via the “faithful and discreet slave” (the supposed 144,000 chosen to be of the “heavenly calling” and who were supposed to be feeding the “sheep at the proper time”) This doctrine is presently under flux as of 2007, but this will not be discussed here.

The JW leaders have emphasized time and time again that they do not receive revelation from God. But what is "new light" if not revelation? Was it new light or revelation when Peter saw the vision of the sheet with unclean animals on them that signified the gospel being taken to the Gentiles? Other Christian sects say that the "other sheep" were the Gentiles. Only the JWs saw the sheep as being another class of people (which I'll not discuss here, either), but the JWs are the only ones who see it the way they do. How many torpedos can they survive and maintain their position as Christ's true church. (Actually, they see themselves as "Jehovah's" church, but the New Testament clearly has Jesus claiming the church as his. That's another big miss.) The point is, new light is revelation. The blood doctrine that initially was contrived by the JW leaders was not rational, so new light correcting that doctrine goes way beyond the change to the circumcision doctrine. That doctrine was given by God, but the blood doctrine as interpreted by the JW leadership was not. To change it would be significantly different than the circumcision and gentile changes. They were changes in divine policies. What happens when you change a policy that's dead wrong?

I personally don't think the JWs will change their policy, but their best bet would be to come out and say they were wrong. And I don't see how they can separate "new light" from "revelation."

They also need to change their "stake" vs. "cross" takes. Historically they're just WRONG. Fortunately for this one, it's not a deal killer. They can just say they were wrong historically and, because it isn't based on revelation, they can continue on.

3

Is Watchtower a Funeral Society?

by cameo-d in

i don't know of any other religion that makes such a discussion of entitlement over funerals---who is entitled to come and who will be asked to leave, who is entitled to have a funeral and who is not.. i ran across this info on another website and it reminded me of the way jws are so ill behaved and cold about funerals.. .

in the premodern world of ancient rome, the earliest christians organized themselves into funeral societies.

these organizations helped the poor and middle classes combine their resources to bury their dead friends and family members in a manner honoring their religious beliefs and cultural practices.

Cold Steel

Stop rationalizing death. Death is awful. Deal with it. Death is meaningless. Get over it. Focus on hope. Talk about God’s victory.

Why would you say "death is awful"? Or that it's "meaningless"? Those who have experienced it (if they've led decent lives) describe it as a beautiful and enlightening experience. Many talk about life reviews, where they relive parts of their lives in learning experiences. Peter, too, talks about the gospel being preached to those who didn't have the chance to accept it here: "For for this cause was the gospel preached to them that are dead; that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit." (1 Peter 4:6)

The JWs believe death is where the spirit sleeps until resurrected, but the early Christians didn't hold this view. I know the JWs scared the living daylights out of my grandmother by telling her she would essentially be worm food after death. Of course someone with that kind of view would not be comfortable with "the grave." But there are thousands of "after death" experiences documented from various parts of the world and unless you've lived a horrible life, death can be a wonderful experience.

Most people who have had these experiences, in fact, come away saying they'll no longer be afraid of death.

I'm not aware that JWs exert a lot of control over funerals. Do they? I want to hear more.

16

Father just named an ELDER...party! or not to party!

by Smoky in

i just found out that the named my father an elder in his congregation.

which i find suprising for many reasons, but thats another story.

anyway my brothers & sisters invited me to go out to dinner with them and the families, in honor of my fathers new appointment, (2 of my bro are also ms, and had similiar "parties" after appointments).

Cold Steel

Being an elder helped me wake up. There is still hope.

Can you elaborate?

I had some fellows come by for a Bible study, but it turned out not to be a Bible study at all. They were jumping all over the place asking loaded questions that had fixed answered. We got hung up on the Armageddon issue and how "Jerusalem" was removed from the JW interpretation. The guys wrote down my biblical citations and promised to get back to me on them. The next time they came (actually just one came back, but with an elder). The elder was clearly the one in charge and there was a distinct deference made to him. He didn't act like the others. (If you've ever been to one of those high-pitch sales, you start off with the rank sales person. When you don't take the deal, they go get the "manager" who can bend the rules and give you a better deal, but only if you act today -- right now.) That's what the elder was like. He was like the next stage manager and he clearly took charge of the meeting. I would have respected him a little bit more, but he wrote down the verses in Revelation, Ezekiel, Zechariah and other citations clearly stating that "Jerusalem" would be the target of Armageddon battle, not the WBTS. They stated that Armageddon was only mentioned once in the scriptures, but actually that "once" clearly spoke about the attack being against Jerusalem. They also missed the second reference in Zechariah 12:11: And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn. In that day shall there be a great mourning in Jerusalem, as the mourning of Hadadrimmon in the valley of Megiddon."

See the reference to Jerusalem? Then the Jews will look upon "me" (Jehovah) whom they, the Jews, had "pierced." Then, once the "inhabitants of Jerusalem" realize that their fathers killed their Messiah, there will be mourning "as one moureth for his only son." And, saith the Lord, "In that day shall there be a great mourning in Jerusalem, as the mourning of Hadadrimmon in the valley of Megiddon." That "valley of Megiddon" is a clear reference to Armageddon. Yet the Watchtowers says: "THE word 'Armageddon' has its origin in the Hebrew expression Har–Magedon, or 'Mountain of Megiddo.' It is found at Revelation 16:16 , which states: 'They gathered them together to the place that is called in Hebrew Har–Magedon.'" But as we see, it's not the only reference to Armageddon.

This was what I told the elder, and he wrote it all down and *poof* -- that's the last I heard from him or the others. So I guess the "manager" decided that I wasn't likely to buy the time share. So elders do have to make these decisions and if they have that kind of deference I saw, then I suppose they have quite a bit of authority.

69

KS Blood-Handout s-55-e (PDF)!!!

by yknot in

we interrupt your forum posting for this 'just in' item...... it appears an elder has not locked his doctor's bag and a member of the conscious class has brazeningly swiped & scanned a copy of the s-55e.

(((thank you anonymous cc jw!.

for the purpose of our bethel audience i want to assure you no actual elder was willingly involved in the obtaining of this scan.. link: http://www.sendspace.com/file/mnf7a0.

Cold Steel

I need some help with the exegesis. On the first page it states: "What reasonable steps can parents take to protect their children from the misuse of blood? -- Eccl. 9:11"

Ecclesiastes 9:11 states: "I returned, and saw under the sun, that the race is not to the swift, nor the battle to the strong, neither yet bread to the wise, nor yet riches to men of understanding, nor yet favour to men of skill; but time and chance happeneth to them all." (KJV)

Am I missing something?

12

Surely the most damning statement ever published by the WTS

by S EIGHT in

awake!, october 8, 1968 page 23, said:.

.... there have been those in times past who predicted an "end to the world," even announcing a specific date.... yet, nothing happened.

the "end" did not come.

Cold Steel

Perhaps they were criticizing those in the organization who came before. They certainly admitted in places that they had been wrong.